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Thread: IR 50/50 Sporters

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kent Owens View Post
    Tony, I definitley agree about the dificultly, and wee bit of guessing involved, and reward of shooting a sporter well. Lots of folks never liked sporters because they never shot one that was hitting on all cylinders, ie. a good one. LOL I no longer compete, but still have some good sporters. Last one I built for myself, shot one match and won with a 250 first time out, hasn't been fired since. I just love rimfires. LOL
    There is that but the elephant in the room is that a ton of guys, particularly older guys, just have a tough time with a 6X scope, especially the guys that will not invest in a first class optic.....one you can get ALL the parallax out.
    Nobodyís eyes get better with time and the average shooter ainít getting any younger out there in IR 50 land.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim View Post
    There is that but the elephant in the room is that a ton of guys, particularly older guys, just have a tough time with a 6X scope, especially the guys that will not invest in a first class optic.....one you can get ALL the parallax out.
    Nobodyís eyes get better with time and the average shooter ainít getting any younger out there in IR 50 land.
    Tim,

    I agree with your points.

    But let's face it, we have become spoiled with the high power scopes.

    I remember shooting BR 50 with 16 and 24X scopes. Then we moved on to 36 power, then to 40-45 power, and now we are at 55-60X.

    We expect to see every speck on the target. Back when I started shooting I learned to target shoot with a peep sight, many others did as well.

    I shoot my sporter's 6.5X scope very much like a peep sight. I have a medium size dot. I center the dot in the middle of the large black rings on the IR 50 target.

    No, I can't hardly see the really thin crosshairs in some scopes.

    Since I can't see the smaller rings on the target holding off is a matter of judgement of how far off of center I'm holding. Just like a peep sight.

    When you have to hold off quite a lot, and you fire the shot, and look thru the spotting scope and see you took out the center dot.

    A dot you could not even see, it feels like a gift from god. That is what makes shooting a sporter special.

    If you look at it from a perspective of being able to see all the target detail you would with a more powerful scope you are missing the point.

    Yes, I think the younger guys have a slight edge, but it is only slight.

    It is all in the challenge.

    TKH

  3. #33
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    Very interesting thread.

    I agree with TKH approach on judging the POA on sporter class.
    Some guys, during a match, always comment/complaint that they shot better in sporter than on LV/HV. It had also happened to me in the past.
    I took quite an in-deep thought at it, and used my previous shooting disciplines experience on sighting, focusing the reticle over the target, floating pin vs fixed aiming, and so on...
    I do agree that on sporter we are more relaxed on sighting, as we can not see well the target, and concentrate more on all other firing aspects, mainly release and followthrough.
    And there's another very important factor that plays with our subconscious... the acceptance of missing.
    On sporter that acceptance is much bigger, broadening our comfort zone. With bigger magnifications your subconscious brain conditioning is so high, just because the target is so big, that it cannot be missed, that the pressure builds up to a point where it disrupts your comfort zone and ability to stay in focus. When you perceive this happening, a different training approach is needed. And if you succeed, a growing process is established.
    Hope this makes sense.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by PedroS View Post
    Very interesting thread.

    I agree with TKH approach on judging the POA on sporter class.
    Some guys, during a match, always comment/complaint that they shot better in sporter than on LV/HV. It had also happened to me in the past.
    I took quite an in-deep thought at it, and used my previous shooting disciplines experience on sighting, focusing the reticle over the target, floating pin vs fixed aiming, and so on...
    I do agree that on sporter we are more relaxed on sighting, as we can not see well the target, and concentrate more on all other firing aspects, mainly release and followthrough.
    And there's another very important factor that plays with our subconscious... the acceptance of missing.
    On sporter that acceptance is much bigger, broadening our comfort zone. With bigger magnifications your subconscious brain conditioning is so high, just because the target is so big, that it cannot be missed, that the pressure builds up to a point where it disrupts your comfort zone and ability to stay in focus. When you perceive this happening, a different training approach is needed. And if you succeed, a growing process is established.
    Hope this makes sense.
    Pedro,

    You got down to the point and explained a phenomenon that many have experienced but few have understood.

    You have given great insight into the psychology of shooting, a subject we rarely discuss.

    Thank you for joining this thread and adding your insight with such clarity.

    TKH

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonykharper View Post
    Tim,

    I agree with your points.

    But let's face it, we have become spoiled with the high power scopes.

    I remember shooting BR 50 with 16 and 24X scopes. Then we moved on to 36 power, then to 40-45 power, and now we are at 55-60X.

    We expect to see every speck on the target. Back when I started shooting I learned to target shoot with a peep sight, many others did as well.

    I shoot my sporter's 6.5X scope very much like a peep sight. I have a medium size dot. I center the dot in the middle of the large black rings on the IR 50 target.

    No, I can't hardly see the really thin crosshairs in some scopes.

    Since I can't see the smaller rings on the target holding off is a matter of judgement of how far off of center I'm holding. Just like a peep sight.

    When you have to hold off quite a lot, and you fire the shot, and look thru the spotting scope and see you took out the center dot.

    A dot you could not even see, it feels like a gift from god. That is what makes shooting a sporter special.

    If you look at it from a perspective of being able to see all the target detail you would with a more powerful scope you are missing the point.

    Yes, I think the younger guys have a slight edge, but it is only slight.

    It is all in the challenge.

    TKH
    Tony,

    I , like you, have always approached the sporter with itís 6X, much like shooting a receiver sight. I think the higher power advocates tend to miss this very simple premise much to their detriment.
    I tend to believe the real art of sporter shooting is the fine art of ď hold off ď shooting given the reality that many ranges, including my home turf, require more than a few bulls to be shot without ability to hold dead center.
    It goes against the current grain of ,only one piece rests, under the lights, heavy guns, high power optics, etc.
    The beauty of 2 guns required for a true 3 gun agg, shot over sand bags, the way God intended.
    Itís tough, because it is supposed to be tough.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim View Post
    Tony,

    I , like you, have always approached the sporter with itís 6X, much like shooting a receiver sight. I think the higher power advocates tend to miss this very simple premise much to their detriment.
    I tend to believe the real art of sporter shooting is the fine art of ď hold off ď shooting given the reality that many ranges, including my home turf, require more than a few bulls to be shot without ability to hold dead center.
    It goes against the current grain of ,only one piece rests, under the lights, heavy guns, high power optics, etc.
    The beauty of 2 guns required for a true 3 gun agg, shot over sand bags, the way God intended.
    Itís tough, because it is supposed to be tough.
    Tim,

    We are in perfect agreement.

    It is the challenge, you either accept it, or you don't.

    It is good we have different levels of difficulty in RFBR. If we didn't we would have even less shooters than we do today.

    Pick your poison, and enjoy your shooting. I'm just glad we still have some around that choose to take the more difficult road.

    TKH

  7. #37
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by tonykharper View Post
    pedro,

    you got down to the point and explained a phenomenon that many have experienced but few have understood.

    You have given great insight into the psychology of shooting, a subject we rarely discuss.

    Thank you for joining this thread and adding your insight with such clarity.

    Tkh
    boys dont forget you better lear how to hold or never will afcomplish much. It is the one of the most impportant things in shooting bill b.

  8. #38
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    i don't think you are mistaken...i thought it was a kimber but didn't know for sure so i didn't say it.
    i met claude at fairchance later again at johnson city tnn he shot that rifle there and did quite well.

  9. #39
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    An alternative appoach to find your best Sporter hold

    I shoot a Leupold Competition Hunter. (straight 6X). It comes with their Target Dot reticle. I'm not sure if it's their smallest dot but it's nice and small.

    I don't hold in the center of the bull. Since I cant see the lines on the bull at 6 power all that I see is a big white empty space with nothing to consistently put my dot on. Especially after several targets aiming for the center of all that white space is a dicey business in my opinion. And God forbid you have to hold of a little (or a lot). I think a lot of Sporter misses come from the vagaries of holding off in that big white circle with 6 power scope.

    So, I only use the big outer circles since I can see them clearly and consistently. My ideal hold is the dot down at 6 o'clock and half-way into the black. To confirm this I use the horizontal lines on the reticle to see them just disappear into the black on the bull to the right. I think my scope is about 10 clicks up from center hold to set it up at the bottom like this.

    But wait.. there's more! This hold (just talking about vertical now) can give you 5 very repeatable holds:
    1. Dot just touching the black ring
    2. Dot half-way into the black ring
    3. Dot completely in the black ring (the Leupold dot fits the height of the black rings perfectly
    4. Dot half-way out the bottom of the black rings
    5. Dot just touching the black rings at the bottom.

    This method also allows you to easily find the vertical center of each bull. Using method 5 from above you can easily tell when the top of the dot touches the bottom of the big circle. That's your center. Then you can come up to any of the holds that work and you're good. Once you're comfortable with these holds it's also easy to consistently move to your left/right hold-off as well.

    So, what about using the small sighters on the sides? If you're not holding in the center how to adjust for the dramatic hold on the bottom? I line up the dot for my hold on the record bull and then slide over to the sighter and confirm that the horizontal lines on the reticle are where they should be on the record bull.

    I find the small sighters most useful for checking my tracking and set-up of my rifle. I put the dot in the center of a small sighter and watch the shot. I want the dot to remain centered in that small sighter. If it isn't then I need to check my rear bag and anything else that might affect tracking.

    Lastly, I never watch my record shots through the scope as I shoot. I either watch the flags if I'm outside or close my eyes if I'm inside, listen to my music and let the trigger break be a surprise.

    Bruce Hornstein

  10. #40
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    I've never made shooting complicated

    I've shot more 6X Benchrest over the past 20 some years than anything else and had some success at it. I've never made holding off complicated or I wouldn't have been able to do it. Those who make the excuse of not being able to see through a 6X scope are simply convincing themselves they can't see. I shot right through when my cataracts were so bad I could not see any detail at all with my left eye. I've never been very good with a higher powered scope. I've found the holdoffs to be so different between the difference in scope magnification for me, I tend to hold off too much with a higher powered scope. I have always preferred to shoot 6X scopes all through the years and continue to. I built an new Heavy rifle last year for CF games but loan it to a friend to shoot almost all the time. I really don't like seeing the number of Sporter shooters decreasing. 6 power is growing again in IBS.

    Pete

  11. #41
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    Thank you Bruce Hornstein!

    Bruce, several members wanted you to repost in this sticky, myself one of them, and I am happy and thankful you did.
    Thank you so much for explaining another technique in dealing with the Sporter class rules. Whether it works for others or not, 'class act' by you to share something that has added to your impressive performances in RFBR. Also, to be gracious enough to share it in a place that gives easy access in the future for review!

    Many thanks,
    Scott

  12. #42
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    Unfortunately,

    i see the Sporter thing in Rimfire dwindling. I really don't have any opportunity to shoot it anymore. I have a new barrel all but finished but there being no opportunity, I haven't done it. I do not like shooting the ARA target so have all but quit shooting Rimfire. When the 6 power went away, so did my interest in Rimfire. Local thing here, I know, but there is none within reasonable driving distance.

    Pete

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Wass View Post
    i see the Sporter thing in Rimfire dwindling. I really don't have any opportunity to shoot it anymore. I have a new barrel all but finished but there being no opportunity, I haven't done it. I do not like shooting the ARA target so have all but quit shooting Rimfire. When the 6 power went away, so did my interest in Rimfire. Local thing here, I know, but there is none within reasonable driving distance.

    Pete
    I drove 50 hrs over the last 2 weekends to WV & PA mainly to compete with the sporter, see friends & meet others. I guess its how bad you want to. I want to.
    You have 20 sporter cards 8/13-8/15 being shot in Boothbay, 30 minutes away, shooting the IR target, lunch provided
    Finish the gun & come enjoy some 6x shooting.

    Keith

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by linekin View Post
    I drove 50 hrs over the last 2 weekends to WV & PA mainly to compete with the sporter, see friends & meet others. I guess its how bad you want to. I want to.
    You have 20 sporter cards 8/13-8/15 being shot in Boothbay, 30 minutes away, shooting the IR target, lunch provided
    Finish the gun & come enjoy some 6x shooting.

    Keith
    Keith Royal, Sporter shooter, RFBR Competitor, Match director, and all around great guy.

    Keith your desire to shoot sporter matches should inspire us all. That was a lot of driving.

    I've said this before but I will say it again. The sporter is the most evolved RFBR rifle we shoot.

    With it's overall weight limit of 7.5 lbs. 2 1/4 wide wood stock, and a scope of no more than 6.5 power makes it tough.

    Sporter shooting has never been as popular as the heavier rifles and it never will be. But this class offers something to certain shooters that no other event can.

    It is hard, and it takes a shooter to enjoy that little light rifle. Your bench technique, and manners, must be spot on, the rife will not save your mistakes.

    But there is no greater thrill in RFBR that can compare with shootings Xs with a sporter. You can only see the outside dark black rings on the IR 50/50 target. The 7,8,9, and 10 ring are there, but you can't see them.

    Basically you are shooting at the target kinda like you shoot when using a peep sight. You are trying to center those outside black rings and hit the middle. Some use a dot reticle, some just use crosshairs.

    Whatever you use, the thrill is the same. You touch that trigger, look through your spotting scope, see that dot in the center of the target completely taken out, you feel you just received a gift from god.

    You couldn't even see that dot, but yet you have completely shot it out. Shooting any X is fun but not like doing it with a sporter.

    These sporter are so highly evolved they can shoot nearly as well as the heavy rifles. It takes a 250 to win most sporter matches.

    This is a sport that only appeals to a certain group of people but to those that enjoy it nothing else compares.

    Keith is going to host the Maine State and Northeast Regional Sporter and 3 gun matches 14/15 Aug. 21 at Boothbay Maine.

    He is also throwing in a sporter 10-Shot match the night before at 5:30 PM the 13 Aug 21.

    There is not a lot of opportunities for sporter shooters so don't miss this one.

    TKH
    Last edited by tonykharper; 08-06-2021 at 08:27 AM.

  15. #45
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    Crocodile Tears

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Wass View Post
    i see the Sporter thing in Rimfire dwindling. I really don't have any opportunity to shoot it anymore. I have a new barrel all but finished but there being no opportunity, I haven't done it. I do not like shooting the ARA target so have all but quit shooting Rimfire. When the 6 power went away, so did my interest in Rimfire. Local thing here, I know, but there is none within reasonable driving distance.

    Pete
    Wow, some real crocodile tears there, Pete.

    I don't know how you define "reasonable driving distance" but there were 17 Sporter targets shot at Boothbay this past weekend and it looks like that's about 40 minutes away from you. I'd be in heaven if I could do that drive instead of the 14 hours each way like I did.

    Keith did a great job and it's really a shame local shooters up there aren't making much effort.

    Pete, instead of whining about Sporter dwindling actually supporting it would be a lot more productive.

    Bruce Hornstein

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