Precision reloading tools not precise

G

Gator

New member
Hello everyone. I'm new today to this site. I've been reloading since 1985, competed in IHMSA for several years with my pistols but never in Bench Rest. I've been working at getting my Sako 30.06 accurate enough to shoot at the 600 yard range. Action bedded, scope rings lapped, custom sizing and micrometer seating dies, RCBS Match Master scale, etc. My question is "why can't I get consistent readings with my caliper for shoulder bump, bullet seating depth, OAL.,and trimmed case length?" Is it possibly variations in base thickness? I have the Hornady OAL gauge, bullet comparator, Mitutoyo digital caliper, LE Wilson case trimmer, Whidden dies and shoulder bump gauge, etc. While working my load up I was able to drop my SD to a 2.1 but haven't been able to repeat it.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. By the way, this is also my first time posting on a forum. I apologize if I've posted out of line any, lol.
 
How many shots do you anticipate shooting with that '06 on any one day? If you shoot it many times it may "scramble your brain." :)

As for your questions, don't rely on my reply but here it is: How much inconsistency are you getting? (I suspect a minor inconsistency might be due to inconsistent amounts of pressure you apply when closing the caliper.)
 
Spot on about scrambled brain. I've been able to do 40 rounds in a 2 hour period at the range but that's with the safety officers only allowing 20 min. of hot range before a break. Plus writing down all my velocity's and stuff per each group of loads. I did break down and get a 6.5 Creedmore last week. 😃 I loaded another load test group today and my bullet seating depth was right on for every round. Plus I changed powder to a finer ball instead of extruded. After I posted my question I got to thinking, maybe I'm holding myself to too fine of a number. I read the caliper to 4 digits and if the 10,000th number is different from others I get to wondering why. Maybe just take my measurements to the 1000th digit. Anyway, I do appreciate your reply.
 
Most old-school machinists will tell you that a caliper is the wrong tool if you need to guarantee better than 0.002". A micrometer is the called for, for anything finer. I think high quality calipers are probably a little better than that, but pretty much ignore the ten-thousandths digit.

I'd suggest getting things as consistent as you can, then let the paper tell you what's working...

GsT
 
GeneT said:
Most old-school machinists will tell you that a caliper is the wrong tool if you need to guarantee better than 0.002". A micrometer is the called for, for anything finer. I think high quality calipers are probably a little better than that, but pretty much ignore the ten-thousandths digit.

I'd suggest getting things as consistent as you can, then let the paper tell you what's working...

GsT
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Thank you. Do you buy expensive brass to get better consistency in the cases or separate them according to weight or both? In the past it hasn't been an issue for the level of accuracy I needed. I took care of my pistol brass and kept it trimmed and that was good to 200m. I'm using Remington brass at the moment and not trimming it as short as the manuals say. Trying to give it a little more length to support the bullet better. Or am i completely off course? I'll tape over that 4th digit 🤣
 
I buy the best brass I can get (usually Lapua), then sort. I uniform the flash holes, then sort. After uniforming, you'll find a pretty tight distribution, but with some outliers, in quality brass.

You should look into measuring your chamber to see what it's unique "trim-to" length is. Once you know where that 'step' is, you can trim just 0.01" off of that (I may be being conservative, but that's the number I use). Sinclair makes some (I make my own). Link, just so you can see what I'm talking about, not endorsing any particular product: https://www.brownells.com/reloading/measuring-tools/case-length-gauges/sinclair-chamber-length-gage/

GsT
 
GeneT said:
I buy the best brass I can get (usually Lapua), then sort. I uniform the flash holes, then sort. After uniforming, you'll find a pretty tight distribution, but with some outliers, in quality brass.

You should look into measuring your chamber to see what it's unique "trim-to" length is. Once you know where that 'step' is, you can trim just 0.01" off of that (I may be being conservative, but that's the number I use). Sinclair makes some (I make my own). Link, just so you can see what I'm talking about, not endorsing any particular product: https://www.brownells.com/reloading/measuring-tools/case-length-gauges/sinclair-chamber-length-gage/

GsT
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Order submitted, thank you. Do you sort by case weight or something else?
 
i think you did a bad thing. not enough research before jumping in...NEITHER 30'06 NOR AMY CREEDMORE are making wins at 600 yards. 6 dasher 6bra 25x47 6.5x47 in lite. 300 wsm, 6.5x47 25x47 6 dasher 6 bra......no creedmors( ( it started as a dream and there it stays) no 30'06. no factory rifles, custom parts in custom stocks. we are shooting the 1k nationals this weekend,,nbrsa,,,ya can see some results by monday
 
rsmithsr said:
i think you did a bad thing. not enough research before jumping in...NEITHER 30'06 NOR AMY CREEDMORE are making wins at 600 yards. 6 dasher 6bra 25x47 6.5x47 in lite. 300 wsm, 6.5x47 25x47 6 dasher 6 bra......no creedmors( ( it started as a dream and there it stays) no 30'06. no factory rifles, custom parts in custom stocks. we are shooting the 1k nationals this weekend,,nbrsa,,,ya can see some results by monday
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rsmithsr said:
i think you did a bad thing. not enough research before jumping in...NEITHER 30'06 NOR AMY CREEDMORE are making wins at 600 yards. 6 dasher 6bra 25x47 6.5x47 in lite. 300 wsm, 6.5x47 25x47 6 dasher 6 bra......no creedmors( ( it started as a dream and there it stays) no 30'06. no factory rifles, custom parts in custom stocks. we are shooting the 1k nationals this weekend,,nbrsa,,,ya can see some results by monday
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Thank you for your words of wisdom. I'm 75 years old and retired. I didn't come into this forum to start competing in the sport. I was only looking for tips on improving something i enjoy doing. I thought this forum would have a lot of experience to tap into. My days in competition ended in 1986. Now it's something i just enjoy doing. Just hitting the target at 600 yds is all the thrill I need. My 30.06 was purchased in 1986 for hunting. I was never impressed by the accuracy that Sako claims it should have. Last year I had the action bedded and scope rings lapped by Whidden gun works, Finally, it started producing better groups and I was able to qualify on the 600 yd range where I shoot and I was amazed. Guns, cars, sports teams all have their fanatic fans with opinions. I hope you shoot well at the Nationals this weekend.
 
Gator said:
Thank you for your words of wisdom. I'm 75 years old and retired. I didn't come into this forum to start competing in the sport. I was only looking for tips on improving something i enjoy doing. I thought this forum would have a lot of experience to tap into. My days in competition ended in 1986. Now it's something i just enjoy doing. Just hitting the target at 600 yds is all the thrill I need. My 30.06 was purchased in 1986 for hunting. I was never impressed by the accuracy that Sako claims it should have. Last year I had the action bedded and scope rings lapped by Whidden gun works, Finally, it started producing better groups and I was able to qualify on the 600 yd range where I shoot and I was amazed. Guns, cars, sports teams all have their fanatic fans with opinions. I hope you shoot well at the Nationals this weekend.
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welll youngster(am 77),,there things to consider,,,weighing win brass is not a good idea, weighing lapua brass is a good idea.buy some better bullets..berger 175's.....they are expecting winds...40MPH WINDS this weekend. i shot this am i am on at 1000......
 
I've been pricing the Lapua brass from several sources. Good luck with the winds. I've never had the chance to shoot a 1000 yd line. I live in central Florida and there's not one anywhere close to me. The range I go to has a 600 yd and that's an hour drive over there.
 
Shoulder bump requires a 7 second dwell time in the die. Bottoming the die like all the manuals say is for simplicity.
OAL: all bullets have imperfect length from ogive to tip. How much I seat on bolt close is my tuning method for hand lapped barrels and eliminates concerns about oal difference from the seating die. Controlling poa from trigger squeeze to muzzle exit is FAR more important than finding something better than reloading manual oal or being concerned about small differences in bullet tip length with a gun that doesn't "track" under recoil. Two hands on the gun will help. Search for an Accurate Shooter article on the Hoover Clan from Williamsport to see what I mean.
Many trimmers have flex in them. Pushing on the crank consistently will eliminate that.
My unbedded 45 year old 4500 round 308 M70 likes short 150,165 Speer HotCors. 3 shots into six inches at 600 with no wind. Speer manual oal. Powdered to a fairly flat primer. Nothing crazy like Weatherby factory ammo but IME the minimum of the window is above 55,000 psi. With Lee dies. Unsorted Nosler brass is accurate enough for factory barrels.
I've used several IPSC's of Kentucky windage shooting offhand at 600 on windy afternoons with the HotCors lol. But if missing the 600 yard paper is a dq you could be in for weekend of conversation.
FYI The much longer 178 Amax's shoot about four feet at 1000 in my bumpy old M70.
 
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Wow, that is a lot to absorb. I appreciate your response, however, there are a few terms that you use that I'm not familiar with. I take that you mean "bottoming the die" is letting the case sit for 7 seconds. at the top of the stroke. Are you saying that you let the bullet seat completely against the Lands? I'll look up the Hoover Clan. I'm not familiar with the term "powdered to a flat primer" means. Thank you very much for your input.
 
Bottoming the die refers screwing the die down until it contacts the shell holder at the top of the stroke. This pushes the shoulder back to roughly new case dimensions. You only need to move the shoulder enough to close the bolt without resistance. 0.002 is minimum. You can be a .001 more than that without accuracy loss. "Loose shoots good" is a common term. But brass has some memory or spring to it and needs to left in the die when bumping just enough for consistency.
For seating with a hand lapped barrel it's called hard jam. Seating the bullet on bolt close against the rifling .001 is the starting point. I have and IBI prefit it in 6BR Norma that likes seating .007 on bolt close with the neck tension provided by Forster BR FL dies but difficult bolt close with a factory action disturbs the gun and bags more than it's worth. I think it's just over .002 neck tension measuring neck diameter before and after seating but I don't have an option with my dies. Tom Mousel's record setting 300 wsm 1K heavy gun likes .005 neck tension and hard jam. I assume that reduces the need to push them very far. He has been as high as .008 in testing. We're timing the bullet exit to the deadest spot in the barrels motion. IMG_1885.jpeg
Primers are prematurely cratered. Long Rem 700 firing pin in the center on the hard CCI 450. Very soft Winchester primer on the right, I won't buy again, in a Savage action. Put Win with a long firing pin and it puts a hole through a 1/3 of them.
Running the same load on the lower side in 60 degree weather with both.
On a hotter day the hard CCI would be more like the Winchester and be maxed out in my book. The Win would have to be replaced with the CCI because the primer will get so flat it will eventually fill in that rounded portion completely and the firing pin would pierce the soft primer. If you do that with the CCI it would indicate way over 60,000 psi and be hard on brass. Difficulty opening the bolt would be your first clue. Very easy primer seating is another, which then goes in the garbage.
If something isn't clear please ask. I'm a better shooter than a typer.
 
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I just went through and reset my case trimmer to 2.484 for my 30.06. I was comparing my fired primers to your pictures. The picture is a CCI BR2 loaded with 60 gr H4350, a max load for this bullet. Sierra 155 BTHP Palma. I think my pressure is still under control; What is your opinion? (besides bullet and case, LOL. It's what I have at the moment) I hand seat my primers with my Lee tool. That case is a PPU trimmed to 2.486. I'm trying to follow your methods while using what components I have on hand for now. My sizing die is set at .002 bump with a .306 expander. I'll leave the case in the press 7 seconds like you suggest. Have you ever thought about writing a book filled with your experience? Or is that classified information on a need to know basis? I do appreciate your help.
 
rsmithsr said:
welll youngster(am 77),,there things to consider,,,weighing win brass is not a good idea, weighing lapua brass is a good idea.buy some better bullets..berger 175's.....they are expecting winds...40MPH WINDS this weekend. i shot this am i am on at 1000......
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How did you do at the match?
 
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