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Thread: Slugging new barrel blanks?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd Allen View Post
    I discussed the usefulness of slugging with one of the top barrel makers and he confirmed that slugging, or in my friend's case, casting a lap for the same purpose can show up things that would not otherwise be detected. There is one other thing that I would like to point out about this. You seem to have a pretty high opinion of your inexperienced thought as compared with the experience of people who have actually done what you asked about. IMO theory is always trumped by experience. My friend routinely casts laps so that he can evaluate both finished barrels that a customer brings to him as well as new, unchambered barrels. He has sent several problem barrels, from top manufacturers, back for replacement, and he has been able to successfully diagnose problems with customers' rifles the same way. Even if a barrel is properly made as to uniformity, if it is a little too large or small there can be problems. He builds custom hunting rifles for people who will be using solid bullets that do not slug up or swage down like lead core bullets. For those applications having a good match between groove, and bullet diameters has proven to be important. Even with lead core bullets, in applications where a lot of shots are fired between cleanings, barrels that are too tight or have excess choke will tend to copper foul sooner than those that have more suitable dimensions.
    So, Mr Allen, after sending my initial reply and reading your post several times, I have a question. Are you telling me that custom barrel makers are sending out so many inferior barrels that slugging each new barrel blank is necessary and the cost to the shooter/hunter is justified to confirm that the barrel is not inferior and will not shoot? Based on your experience with your friend and this barrel maker can you suggest what % of new custom barrel blanks would/should be considered "bad"?

    Rick

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
    I think we have a misunderstanding here and it's probably my fault for not making myself clear. I have only expressed my opinion based on what I have been told by one barrel maker and by what I have read on this subject in past threads. I thought I made it clear that I have no personal experience in this matter. What I HAVE seen in this thread as well as one on Accurate Shooter is what a number of shooters seem to BELIEVE as an article of faith. What I have attempted to say is that no one has offered any proof other than what they think they can FEEL and what they BELIEVE. This is not a religious experience. I frankly don't care much about folks belief system as it applies to rifle barrels. I have talked with a couple of gunsmiths. One tried to convince me that what he could feel what more accurate than an air gauge. He is a pretty good friend and I really frustrated him because he couldn't convince me. The other is a fairly well know benchrest gunsmith who said he would never allow anyone to slug one of his custom blanks. So far, no one, shooter, gunsmith or machinist has replied to this thread with proof that a human's arm can detect that sophisticated measuring devices apparently can't. Maybe I'm being unreasonable. Is asking for quantifiable proof too much to ask?

    Rick

    Yes. It would take an enormous effort to prove this. There are a lot of things we do that cannot be proven emphatically. You don't believe it don't do it. It is not all send the barrel back. When I was being schooled in slugging one of my barrels had a loose spot 11/2 inches from the muzzle. So we cut off 2 instead of 1 inch. This was with a Smith that slugs every barrel he chambers as part of his process. Took about 15 minutes. I could feel it myself. Did it make a difference? Who knows but it did in my mind and that is what counts. Take a chill pill. Good luck.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
    I think we have a misunderstanding here and it's probably my fault for not making myself clear. I have only expressed my opinion based on what I have been told by one barrel maker and by what I have read on this subject in past threads. I thought I made it clear that I have no personal experience in this matter. What I HAVE seen in this thread as well as one on Accurate Shooter is what a number of shooters seem to BELIEVE as an article of faith. What I have attempted to say is that no one has offered any proof other than what they think they can FEEL and what they BELIEVE. This is not a religious experience. I frankly don't care much about folks belief system as it applies to rifle barrels. I have talked with a couple of gunsmiths. One tried to convince me that what he could feel what more accurate than an air gauge. He is a pretty good friend and I really frustrated him because he couldn't convince me. The other is a fairly well know benchrest gunsmith who said he would never allow anyone to slug one of his custom blanks. So far, no one, shooter, gunsmith or machinist has replied to this thread with proof that a human's arm can detect that sophisticated measuring devices apparently can't. Maybe I'm being unreasonable. Is asking for quantifiable proof too much to ask?

    Rick
    Define quantify. Will it be enough to hold it in your hand, for yourself? You mentioned .001-.002" earlier. That much will stop the slug and you'll need a hammer to drive it through. Since the word of a "friend" with actual experience doesn't seem to be enough for you, I've dug up a couple of cut offs and slugs...just for you.
    I do consider you a friend, but when a friend calls you privately to politely and respectfully tell you that he's done this hundreds of times and that your inexperienced opinion is wrong...you should probably listen to him. That's MY opinion.

    Yes, it's quantifiable but that requires some more effort on my part. What do I get in return? Do I get an apology if I post a simple test here that proves a quantifiable and measurable "feel"? As disrespectful as you were, I do feel like you owe me that...if I can prove that I was right.

    I'm not gonna buy load cells and stepper motors for this. I don't have to, as it's clear, even with a set of bathroom scales. You can truly feel a lot more than the video will prove, too.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdean View Post
    Yes. It would take an enormous effort to prove this. There are a lot of things we do that cannot be proven emphatically. You don't believe it don't do it. It is not all send the barrel back. When I was being schooled in slugging one of my barrels had a loose spot 11/2 inches from the muzzle. So we cut off 2 instead of 1 inch. This was with a Smith that slugs every barrel he chambers as part of his process. Took about 15 minutes. I could feel it myself. Did it make a difference? Who knows but it did in my mind and that is what counts. Take a chill pill. Good luck.
    Chill pill.....excuse me. I'm not the one who is upset here. I've just asked questions and apparently I'm supposed to take the answers as some kind of article of faith. An enormous effort to prove....but you learned it in 15 minutes....right. You might reread the original post. I asked about this for a friend, not because I had or have any intention of doing it. In fact, although I've been involved in benchrest competition nearly twenty years I'd rarely, almost never even heard it mentioned. I neither believe or disbelieve there is something to it. I'm just asking questions.

    One thing I do wonder about. Let's say for discussion I order a custom specialty barrel of some non popular caliber and contour. Then I wait many months and pay $450-500 for this barrel. Then I take it to this vary well known gunsmith who refuses to chamber it without slugging. He slugs the barrel and determines it is defective and will never be made to shoot. What happens then? Will the well know custom barrel maker just take it back, cut it up and make me another at no extra charge? I don't think this is an unreasonable question. Are you telling me it is? And should I take the explanation that you and Mr Allen have given me as an article of faith? That's what it sounds like.

    Rick
    Last edited by Greyfox; 04-28-2018 at 10:39 PM.

  5. #35
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    You need 2 pills. Just take to a Smith that will not slug barrels and have at it. You can not get the answer you want.
    The Smith i was talking about would call you and ask you what you want to do. Wait for another one or chamber the one you have. Life is full of choices you have to make.
    Read my post. I didn't say I learned anything. I took his learned opinion after 1000's of barrels. I was just starting my journey.
    Last edited by sdean; 04-28-2018 at 10:26 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Tooley View Post
    And you can shoot the difference with an M14?
    A good M14NM barrel would shoot 1/2 moa at 600yds with iron sights, prone, with a sling using LC M852 ammo.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdean View Post
    You need 2 pills. Just take to a Smith that will not slug barrels and have at it. You can not get the answer you want.
    The Smith i was talking about would call you and ask you what you want to do. Wait for another one or chamber the one you have. Life is full of choices you have to make.
    No need to get pissed at me because you can't answer the question. And I repeat since you can't seem to get it. I don't care and have no plans to ever have a barrel slugged. This thread has been very revealing though, for several reasons.

    Rick

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
    No need to get pissed at me because you can't answer the question. And I repeat since you can't seem to get it. I don't care and have no plans to ever have a barrel slugged. This thread has been very revealing though, for several reasons.

    Rick

    Not pissed at all Rick. Just having fun jerking your chain. I'm gone. Bye.
    Last edited by sdean; 04-28-2018 at 11:08 PM.

  9. #39
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    not me

    would you buy a car without driving it first?

  10. #40
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    Smile

    I personally have never seen a barrel slugged. I would very much like to see it done by someone that really knows what he is doing and also I would like to be able to slug a barrel myself and fill the difference which I am sure there will be in one now and then.
    Although I have had many smiths do barrel work for me over the past 30 so years. Never had one ask me to have the barrel slugged, not that it would make any difference the way I shoot.
    That being said, I would be willing to bet that in the Brenchrest World that more Hall of fame points, World records set and matches won are with barrels not slugged then with barrels slugged.


    Chet

  11. #41
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    Let's be clear. The op's claim is not that one can definitively proclaim a barrel's worth nor will slugging replace air gauging. His claim is that small variations can't be felt by humans, specifically .001"-.002". Those differences are not what I'd call small but they are what he has said. You can feel way less than that. A slug is a somewhat soft, molded go/no go gauge. A miniscule variation in size is apparent as it slides across them. I'm sure an air gauge is better at quantifying the amount size variation but I'm not sure that it's any better at detecting a change in dimension is present. But, that's not the op's stated argument. His argument is that he does not believe you can feel small differences, up to and including .002".
    Just like closing the bolt on a no go gauge...you definitely feel it. Being lead, it can be forced into the bore but it will take some force to get it through a .002" constriction.

  12. #42
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    Hi Mike
    On your last post lost you say the OP talked about feeling the difference of .001 to .002 while slugging.
    I have read and reread his post and all he said or talked about was slugging or not slugging.
    Are you saying that the top barrel makers let out some barrels with as much as .002 error in a top grade match Barrel ? I think .002 would be GREAT BIG ERROR and I am very sure that much can be felt with a soft lead slug. I also would also like to think that .002 would not be true maybe .0002 or less
    P.S. Just asking because I don't know.

    Chet
    Last edited by coyotechet; 04-29-2018 at 01:56 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by coyotechet View Post
    Hi Mike
    On your last post lost you say the OP talked about feeling the difference of .001 to .002 while slugging.
    I have read and reread his post and all he said or talked about was slugging or not slugging.
    Are you saying that the top barrel makers let out some barrels with as much as .002 error in a top grade match Barrel ? I think .002 would be GREAT BIG ERROR and I am very sure that much can be felt with a soft lead slug. I also would to think that would not be true maybe .0002 or less
    P.S. Just asking because I know.

    Chet
    No, I'm not saying that. Post 23. In fairness, Rick said cotton patch in that post. Perhaps he meant .0001-.0002 but he didn't say so in our conversation, when I told him that would be a HUGE amount.

  14. #44
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    It seems that almost no one has taken the time to go back to my original post and see what it was actually about. My question had to do with doing research for a friend regarding the value of slugging barrels to determine whether they were "good" or "bad" . I have freely admitted that I know less than nothing about barrel slugging, so I have no "opinion" and make no "claims" one way or the other. This thread has deteriorated into questions about the calibration of the human bicep, slugging with 22LR bullets, shotgun pellets, poured slugs and cotton patches. Mike E has chosen to feel "disrespected" because I did not agree with his personal experience. That's unfortunate as well as the fact that he chose to make a public issue of a private conversation. But both of those are his decision. Several others seem to have taken as a personal insult that I would disagree with them since I am so very ignorant about the whole thing. It really makes no difference to me what anyone thinks they can "feel" when pushing a patch or a slug through a barrel. I will say that if it was all that important it would seem that all benchrest barrels would be slugged and that all smiths doing benchrest work would do it. Clearly, that is not the case. I personally know a number of smiths who chamber benchrest barrels and none of them slug blanks. I have seen enough on this thread to know what I think and I'm pretty sure my friend has seen it or will shortly. So for us, the information has been provided.

    Rick

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
    It seems that almost no one has taken the time to go back to my original post and see what it was actually about. My question had to do with doing research for a friend regarding the value of slugging barrels to determine whether they were "good" or "bad" . I have freely admitted that I know less than nothing about barrel slugging, so I have no "opinion" and make no "claims" one way or the other. This thread has deteriorated into questions about the calibration of the human bicep, slugging with 22LR bullets, shotgun pellets, poured slugs and cotton patches. Mike E has chosen to feel "disrespected" because I did not agree with his personal experience. That's unfortunate as well as the fact that he chose to make a public issue of a private conversation. But both of those are his decision. Several others seem to have taken as a personal insult that I would disagree with them since I am so very ignorant about the whole thing. It really makes no difference to me what anyone thinks they can "feel" when pushing a patch or a slug through a barrel. I will say that if it was all that important it would seem that all benchrest barrels would be slugged and that all smiths doing benchrest work would do it. Clearly, that is not the case. I personally know a number of smiths who chamber benchrest barrels and none of them slug blanks. I have seen enough on this thread to know what I think and I'm pretty sure my friend has seen it or will shortly. So for us, the information has been provided.

    Rick
    Apparently, your mind was made up before you got conflicting experienced replies, Rick. It's also apparent that you aren't interested in the notion of being proven wrong. I offered to post a video and I had planned to bring a couple of barrel stubs and slugs for you to see it firsthand, with one condition, that you apologize if I am right. As for me feeling disrespected from our conversation, I told you that I can feel small variances in the bore with slugging. Your reply was, "no you can't..you might think you can. Nothing you can say can change my mind because (blank) said so."

    IOW, you were calling me a liar. Feeling variances of your stated .001-.002" is not subjective, at all.
    We discussed this, so I'm not just now, jumping to this conclusion. You were OK with my feeling disrespected then. Now, I'm OK with it too.
    Last edited by mwezell; 04-29-2018 at 04:59 PM.

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