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Thread: Bipod for F-TR?

  1. #1
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    Bipod for F-TR?

    Gentlemen,

    Can someones explain if a bipod with coaxial/joystick feature can be used (=legal to use) in F-TR?

    I can't find specific rules about bipod in the F-TR rules, only it shall be a bi-pod (=with two legs).

    Okay, I plan to make it if it's ok/legal to use.
    (It's just my newest idea.....well, not a secret anymore now).

    The idea is to add joystick feature on a common bipod.

    That means adjustment is/will be by the joystick (not rear bag squeezing)

    Pro? Cons?

    Thanks you in advance,
    seb.

  2. #2
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    To copy from NRA website, Section 22. F-Class Rifle Rules.... http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-w22.pdf

    3.4.1 Rifle Rests

    (b) F-Class Target Rifle (F-TR) Rests - A bipod and/or sling are the only allowed front supports for the F-TR
    rifle. The rifle may be supported by a bipod and/or sling and a rear support which provide no positive
    mechanical method for returning it to its precise point of aim for the prior shot. Subject to:
    (1) The bipod and/or sling and rear support may not be attached to each other.
    (2) The use of any form of a table is prohibited. Separate flat boards or plates not exceeding the
    dimensions of the individual rests by two inches are allowed to be placed under the front and/or rear
    rests. In the case of a bipod, the board or plate may not exceed the width of the bipod by 2", nor be
    more than 12" front to rear. See Rule 3.4.1(a)(1).
    No leveling screws or protrusions are allowed on these boards or plates. They must be flat on the top
    and bottom.
    This discipline is a modification of high power prone shooting, not a form of bench rest and should not
    be construed as such.
    Disabled competitors may apply to the NRA Protest Committee for appropriate dispensation.
    The intent of this rule is to prevent the use of a table type device.
    (3) A bipod is a device with no more than two legs that touch the firing point. It must be rigidly attached to
    the forend of the rifle. The bipod may have rigid or folding legs, and may be adjustable to compensate
    for the uneven surface of the firing point.
    (4) No portion of the rifle’s butt or forend shall rest directly on the ground or any hard surface. A rear
    rabbit eared bag, small sandbag or a gloved hand may be used to support the rifle’s butt. Any rear
    support employed shall not be attached, clamped or held to the rifle in any manner. The rear support
    may not be fixed to or protrude into the firing point. Mechanically adjustable rear support is not
    allowed.
    (5) Any number or type of objects may be placed beneath the bipod or rear support, to compensate for
    variations in height or slope of the firing point.
    (6) The bipod and rear rest may be adjusted after any shot to compensate for rest movement or settling.
    A sling may be used in conjunction with the rest(s), but its weight will be included in the rifle’s overall
    weight (Rule 3.4.(b)).


    In Section 3. Equipment & Ammunition
    3.3.2
    (b) Bipods may be attached but not utilized.

    "may be attached but not utilized"... What does this mean?


    seb
    Last edited by seblambang; 09-18-2012 at 05:09 PM.

  3. #3
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    seb,

    You've went beyond the F-Class Rules with your question about Rule 3.3.2, which when read in it's full form answrs the question you asked......

     3.3.2 NRA Any Sight Match Rifle/Tactical Rifle - Same as NRA Match Rifle Rule 3.3 except there is no restriction as to sights. The following restrictions will apply:
    (a) No person firing an any sight rifle under 3.3.2 will be allowed to compete with any other group of shooters who are also firing. A competitor using any sight rifle under Rule 3.3.2 will only be eligible for awards in their own division.
    (b) Bipods may be attached but not utilized. Ammunition will be restricted to no larger than .35 caliber.

    It covers using a Tacticl Rifle with an attached Bi Pod as a Match Rifle in the Any Rifle/Any Sight Class, not F-Class.

  4. #4
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    Does this rule even apply to F/TR ( F/ Target Rifle)? I believe the last sentence excludes F/TR but correct me if I am wrong. There is "NO" Tactical in F/TR...

    Roland

  5. #5
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    My mistake & ignorance. I think I have 'mixed' the rules, i.e. section #3 for tactical/match rifle into the F-TR.

    Thanks you for the replies,
    seb.

  6. #6
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    If the new Sinclair is legal then a joystick one should be. I have a extra Shadetree joystick I have thought about rigging just like you are thinking. Just really don't want to give up any weight on my gun. Seb how lite do you think you could get the joystick unit down to. Ease of operation would be your only gain.

  7. #7
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    sdean,
    Thanks for your response.
    I 'aim' 400 grams max (less than 14 oz) for the 'coaxial unit'.
    Technically it can be done/no problem, it's basically an extra small/miniature of my current coaxial unit.
    From my rough sketches it's about 1" thick x 1 3/4" tall x 4" long.
    Another 13 oz or so for the legs/feet & upper attachment. Total weight about 1.6 lbs. Yes, the lighter the better for this purpose.

    You're correct about ease of operation. But one of the more important goals for me is 1) it would/must be more comfort to use compared to a conventional bipod. When you shoot prone with one/another hand squeezing rear bag (under the arm-pit), the muscle works harder (whether the muscle in the arm or around the fingers) - compared to the arm in the front using a joystick.
    (You can try it... pretend to shoot prone with another hand under your arm-pit squeezing rear bag, for several minutes. Then compare with the arm in the front using a joystick. I guess that you would agree with me).
    It must also be able to withstand rough/heavy recoil, etc.

    seb.

  8. #8
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    how are you going to keep the joystick from moving with all the shifting the F-class guys do, I have a neo and it is great but have not tried it on the ground, waiting for counterweights,

    remember the F-class do not shoot free recoil

    Jefferson

  9. #9
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    Seb if you can build one at 2 lbs then put me on the top of your list.It would help me stay in a more consistant position -short arms- then reaching for my new Sinclair. I hold my gun fairly hard so I use both hands on the buttstock anyway. I really like my Sinclair but if it had a joystick I think I would like it better. I would think some might try to limit stuff like this in FTR but probably be hard to do. Just human nature to push the envelope and to innovate. I play by whatever rules they have. There is a club shoot by me where you have to use a harris type bipod and magazine fed just to stay away from this stuff. It is fine with me I have a gun to fit that too. I just like to shoot.
    Stephen

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson View Post
    how are you going to keep the joystick from moving with all the shifting the F-class guys do.

    remember the F-class do not shoot free recoil
    That's the challenge Jeff, how to make a joystick bipod that works & works well. As I said in the earlier post, it must also be able to withstand rough/heavy recoil/bouncing etc.
    I think it can be done. I'm quite optimist with it.
    I must be able to make a prototype next month and will check how it works in Bisley UK.

    , I have a neo and it is great but have not tried it on the ground, waiting for counterweights,
    Thanks you so much for being a loyal customer! (I know you bought many stuffs from Uncle Paul, also remember with the hat you gave me a few years ago? I still keep it!)

    Cheers,
    seb.

  11. #11
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    Stephen,
    2 lbs is plenty, my aim is less than that.
    Thanks, but later on that. I will only produce it if it works superbly as expected.
    seb.

  12. #12
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    OK, I have not yet shot F class, but there is something wrong here, at least to me.

    How can one adjust a bipod if you're holding the bag with the left hand and your right is on the trigger. As I said, I've not yet shot this class, I don't even have a bipod, but the physical configuration just don't seem right. But then again, what do I know.

    Someone enlighten me.

    Thanks,

    Roy

  13. #13
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    Roy, Why would you be holding the bag with any hand if you had another way to make adjustments?

  14. #14
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    Okay, I have made a rough prototype today.

    The mini 'coaxial unit' is done, it weighs approximately 380 grams with/including the joystick. (I'm very happy with the result, it works very well also).
    I think I still can reduce the weight of the coaxial unit by about 15-20%, still plenty meat on the 'body' that can be machined out.
    The coaxial unit/top would handle 20 lbs rifle with ease, so it's 'already very enough' for 17 lbs F-TR rifles.

    Now with the legs.... I made two rectangular solid bars of about 1/2" thick x 1-3/8" wide x 8" long (still heavy approx 600 grams for a pair). It's just/still a very rough legs and not adjustable in length, only to see how the 'bipod' works on a rifle.
    BTW, the legs are foldable & each leg is secured with one bolt only (M6x1.0 adjustable handle/lever screw). It can be folded to the front or to the rear (total 180 degree). The whole unit + the joystick measures about 2" thick x 5" wide x 9" long when folded.
    The 'footprint is about 15" wide. This is at the lowest setting, it will be much wider when done with the adjustable legs. It will be wider when taller.

    I put the "bipod" (with "...") on one of my rifles this afternoon. The stock can accept a Harris bipod, I just removed the sling nut & use a screw.
    I tried to 'shoot' in prone, operated the stick etc, also to twist the 'bipod' to any angles and found no any movements. It feels very solid & rigid. (that's why I'm very happy).
    I also tried to put my whole weight (160 lbs +/-) on the bipod (stood on the 'bipod') and found no flex etc. (So if the adjustable legs can withstand more than 60 lbs it will be great).
    I'll make new (adjustable) legs to be less than 400 grams, next Monday/Tuesday.


    I have 2 questions at this time...:

    1). Any inputs for the height? ... lowest & highest?.... 6" to 9", or 6" to 10", or ...?
    For me the 'comfort zone' is about 8" to 9", but it's just me.
    Considering shooting uphill & downhill.

    2). Also any inputs with how to attach/secure the bipod on the stock?...such as the Anschutz rail or Weaver style, or?
    Never have other bipods rather than the Harris here. Also never make a bipod before.
    Probably some photos showing the underside of the fore-arm? so I can see it clearly how your bipod is secured to the stock/forearm.
    I want to make a universal "head/attachment" & tilt-able or rotate-able (but can be locked), if possible.

    Your inputs & photos will be much appreciated.

    Thanks you in advance,
    seb.

    PS: I'll take some pics of the prototype unit in a few days/next week.
    Last edited by seblambang; 10-13-2012 at 04:29 PM.

  15. #15
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    Seb,

    I'll take some measurements for height/width/adjustment range, and some pics of the attachment points if someone doesn't beat me to it. Might be a day or two, though.

    Monte

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