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Thread: proper primer ignition

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    washington.........STATE that is.
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    proper primer ignition

    So I've heard a lot about "proper ignition".....

    For many years I thought that "proper ignition" must be tied to Extreme Spread, that proper ignition is key to consistent velocity.

    new spring
    different spring
    better spring
    polish the pin
    polish the bolt
    trigger timing
    striker fall
    firing pin shape
    different primers
    flash holes
    primer pockets
    depth of seat
    depth of crush
    shape of primer seat

    etc etc etc

    But in the last 6-8yrs I've gotten my velocity dialed, my ES down into single digits another way and I haven't even thought about primer ignition....... thought I've had the whole consistency thing licked.....

    So I'm asking....

    Is it possible/probable that even with very low extreme spread AND a centered-up tune that primers can still affect accuracy??



    And if so, any thoughts as to HOW???

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Davenport, Iowa
    Posts
    407

    Velocity/Primer effect?

    Assumption
    The less time a bullet spends getting to the target the less effect the wind will have on the bullet.
    If some primers are "Hotter" than others they would burn the powder faster creating more pressure on the bullet which translates to increased bullet speed.
    If your case is filled to maximum of powder one way to increase speed is increase the powder burn rate by starting a "Hotter Fire"(Primer).

    I'm not familiar with primer burn rate tables so don't have a recommendation

    BUT
    I'm seeing some CCI--BR4 primers now listed on equipment lists from some very good shooters.
    They are about 50% more costly than F205's so they think they are worth the money.
    I'm not sure their reasons BUT could it be they have a "HOTTER FIRE"?

    When/where does one reach a point of diminishing returns and loss of accuracy?

    It sounds like you have your gun shooting great.
    Probably need to change 2-3 things before the match!!!!!!

    CLP
    Last edited by C.L. Peterson; 05-21-2020 at 05:28 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    625
    Quote Originally Posted by C.L. Peterson View Post
    Assumption
    The less time a bullet spends getting to the target the less effect the wind will have on the bullet.
    If some primers are "Hotter" than others they would burn the powder faster creating more pressure on the bullet which translates to increased bullet speed.
    If your case is filled to maximum of powder one way to increase speed is increase the powder burn rate by starting a "Hotter Fire"(Primer).

    I'm not familiar with primer burn rate tables so don't have a recommendation

    BUT
    I'm seeing some CCI--BR4 primers now listed on equipment lists from some very good shooters.
    They are about 50% more costly than F205's so they think they are worth the money.
    I'm not sure their reasons BUT could it be they have a "HOTTER FIRE"?

    When/where does one reach a point of diminishing returns and loss of accuracy?

    It sounds like you have your gun shooting great.
    Probably need to change 2-3 things before the match!!!!!!

    CLP
    I love it, when I'm, "40 years ahead of the curve! RG

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Kentucky-Home of the Kentucky Wildcats
    Posts
    2,308
    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    So I've heard a lot about "proper ignition".....

    For many years I thought that "proper ignition" must be tied to Extreme Spread, that proper ignition is key to consistent velocity.

    new spring
    different spring
    better spring
    polish the pin
    polish the bolt
    trigger timing
    striker fall
    firing pin shape
    different primers
    flash holes
    primer pockets
    depth of seat
    depth of crush
    shape of primer seat

    etc etc etc

    But in the last 6-8yrs I've gotten my velocity dialed, my ES down into single digits another way and I haven't even thought about primer ignition....... thought I've had the whole consistency thing licked.....

    So I'm asking....

    Is it possible/probable that even with very low extreme spread AND a centered-up tune that primers can still affect accuracy??



    And if so, any thoughts as to HOW???

    Lol! All of it matters..Once everything about the gun and load are right..and the barrel likes what it's being fed...then it's about the barrel being at the right place when the bullet reaches the crown. Seriously, and that changes. Timing becomes everything at that point and not just ignition timing. Weakest link is all ya got.

    Why do I get the feeling.. like you were asking a question that you know the answer to?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    washington.........STATE that is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    Why do I get the feeling.. like you were asking a question that you know the answer to?
    Because a lot of great shooters, better and much more experienced shooters than me give great credence to primers.

    I do not know if any of them weigh to the kernel of powder which Is how I easily get ES down in the toilet, and WITH ES down in the toilet, I've never had "bad primers" where it didn't work.

    And then you've got a TON of experienced guys who state as fact that "ES don't mean nuttin!"

    Me, I'm all about "The Mechanism".... as in WHY could it make a difference?

    I remember when Jim Borden and Doc Jackson and Harold Vaughn and some others set out to quantify "tuning"...... and they DID, and coined the term "sine wave tuning"...... cuz that's what it WAS ...... and they showed the mechanism.

    I'm just wondering if I still need to mess with primers.

    I thought I was dialed

    But I wonder

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    2,374
    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    I thought I was dialed

    But I wonder
    This is what's great about free enterprise - you let them sell it themselves.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    La Belle Province
    Posts
    156
    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    Because a lot of great shooters, better and much more experienced shooters than me give great credence to primers.

    I do not know if any of them weigh to the kernel of powder which Is how I easily get ES down in the toilet, and WITH ES down in the toilet, I've never had "bad primers" where it didn't work.

    And then you've got a TON of experienced guys who state as fact that "ES don't mean nuttin!"

    Me, I'm all about "The Mechanism".... as in WHY could it make a difference?

    I remember when Jim Borden and Doc Jackson and Harold Vaughn and some others set out to quantify "tuning"...... and they DID, and coined the term "sine wave tuning"...... cuz that's what it WAS ...... and they showed the mechanism.

    I'm just wondering if I still need to mess with primers.

    I thought I was dialed

    But I wonder

    Proper Primer ignition, most of the time…..

    For the basic Mechanism / Function to work you need 3 primary ingredients; fuel, oxidizer and the stimulus of a blow (as you have listed). If you check out the MSDS’s of the different primer manufactures you will find a long and varied list of Primary Explosives, High Explosives, Fast Fuels, Slow Fuels, Oxidizers and Sensitizers. Mostly tailored by specific uses and most containing one or more types of lead.

    Temperature Sensitivity; barrel, powder and primer work as one system and they all count.

    I think if you have found the right combination stick with it… I also think when it comes to competition and match time restraints all bets are off as to ES and loading to one kernel of powder. And that is where the best shooters shine; experience.

    BR
    Ken

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Ca.
    Posts
    650
    I am a single shot plainbase cast bullet competitor and my rifle has an adjustable hammer spring. I have found having the right hammer spring tension has been of some help. To light or to heavy it just doesn't seem to like but there is a sweet spot that it does seem to like allot.

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