Is the Juenke worth the end result?

[Tony Z]

I know that a lot has been said about the Juenke bullet spinner on this forum in years past. But now that all the bullets have been spun and shot by a number of shooters worldwide, what are the current views about this device and its value to getting the 9 and 1 or 8 and 2 groups to become a 10 shot cluster at a 1000 yds? I do all the other qualification and it is these 1 or 2 shots lost that are the difference to a 4 inch group or 6 inch six match agg.

Is the choice to buy a Juenke or 3000 BIBs?

Tony Z.

[kaferhaus]

You might want to ask James Phillips aka "james in TN" He posts on 6BR.com quite a bit.... has set a couple world records at Long Range BR and uses one.

At one time, he swore by it. But I don't know if he's still using it or not..... we've all "sworn" by things in the past only to learn we were fooling ourselves.

My personal ability will have to make a dramatic improvement before I would consider one!

I thought MY RIFLE wouldn't group at 600yds..... until we put it in a machine rest that was bolted to the bench. Turns out the rifle will likely shoot with anything out there.... but I can't.....

[Danny Brooks]

Tony,

Buy the Juenke, learn to use it and learn it's personality. By personality, I mean way it works during different room conditions. There will be several. And like anything else, no two units will work the same. I have had three units sitting on the same table, just to compare.
Now that I have scared you, don't worry. I use mine all of the time. It will help you in sorting bullets and brass. The brass sorting is just as important as the bullets.
Get the unit ASAP. Mr. Juenke is the only one that I know making such a product.

Good luck,
Danny

[Bob Pastor]

Tony,

Check your email.

[Charles E]

Originally Posted by Tony Z

Is the choice to buy a Juenke or 3000 BIBs?Tony Z.

Well, if you buy the BIB's, you don't need the Juenke. The way I put it is spining BIB's on the Juenke is like watching paint dry -- you get so bored, you wouldn't notice an change even if one did come along. As others have said, a lot of long-range winning shooters (Danny, Charles Bailey, Joel Pendergaft) have used the Juenke. And just as many winning shooters don't think it useful. I do use one (except not for BIBs), but not exactly as the maker intended. I think Danny has it about right, you learn it's characteristics & what you can do with it.

[dbhostler]

I too like my machine and I agree the BIB bullets are very consistant. One rifle I have really likes the 107 SMKs and I do notice that at 400 yds, the limits of my range, bullets under 5 units group better. If I had a choice between a Juneke and 3K BIBs....I'd buy both
db

[Rosebud]

I've been using one for several years and my belief is that at 1000 yds.
the results are more noticeable than at 600 yds. At first I was not shooting
bullets with a deviation greater than 3 deviations in a match. Now anything
5 or less goes into the "Golden BB" pile. Then I sort by weight and ogive.

My rifles and ammo will always shoot better than I can hold, but using the Juenke is good for my mind set. Confidence in my loads and equipment
always helps me shoot better.

Don Rose
Enumclaw, Wa.

[Eric Stecker]

We have received so much feedback regarding bullets checked on the Juenke that several years ago we picked one up for ourselves. One of the questions we could not find an answer to is "what does a deviation unit represent?" I have heard about how the Juenke checker looks into the bullet to see jacket thickness variations or voids between the core and the jacket. We did an experiment that settles in my mind what the Juenke is telling us.

First we checked an empty jacket and found that the empty jacket produced 3 deviation units. Then we took a core and put it into the jacket (it was loose so it rolled around inside the jacket as the jacket spun around). We observed the same three deviation units at the same location on the gauge. Then we took a toothpick and shoved the toothpick down one side of the core inside the jacket so that the core was held to one side of the jacket while the jacket was spinning. We observed the same three deviation units at the same location on the gauge. We had marked the jacket and the deviation units indicator was in the same spot in relation to the position of the jacket in every test.

I am pretty convinced that the Juenke is telling us the distance from the sensor to the portion of the bullet you are measuring that is directly above the sensor. In my opinion based on the way the bullet sits on the ball bearings is that the Juenke is telling you whether the bullet is straight or banana shaped (banana shaped is an extreme description but it illustrates my point).

I have not been able to connect a deviation unit to an amount in inches as this is difficult to measure on anything other than a Juenke. Many report that bullets that check good (minimal deviation units) on the Juenke shoot tighter at long range. Since most 1K shooters sort in one way or another those who do not use a Juenke might be grouping bullets that would check well on the Juenke by using other methods. If I had a choice between a Juenke and 3,000 BIB bullets I would choose the Juenke. This is no reflection on Randy as he is a top notch bullet maker. It's just that I already have a supply of bullets.

Regards,
Eric Stecker
Berger Bullets

[Tony Z]

Sorry this is a little belated. Thanks to all that took the time to reply and a special thanks to Bob with the email sent . Very impressive.
I am gong to have some bullets spun by a friend that has a Juenke and then when they return, i will wait for a good day and shoot my qualified bullets against those spun, and then watch aJR shoot his BIBs. After that i will make a decision and post the findings.
Thanks to all again. Have a good Christmas.

Tony Z.

[MARKS]

Tony,

Some of the guys a Hawks Ridge 1000 yds benchrest have replaced there Juenke with a Bearing surface compairtor ( I am using a Tubb's now). This is all I do to the bullets. It is very fast, easy, and consistent to use. I am shooting mostly 600 yd IBS benchrest, this past year. I win 7 First place Aggs, and 3 second Aggs, and have a pending record for a single target HG score 54 with a 1.9" group in only 4 matches. I sort in groups of .001" then combine in .003". I am shooting 105gr 6mm Berger's, in a 6Brx running around 3000 f/s.

You can get a compairtor for $150.00 of so, and still get 2000 bullets.

Mark Schronce

[Jan]

....which comparator are you using?

[ADAM/Orion]

Hallo Dear Sir,

A bit late in the day for it, as we say in the UK, but I just now read your post in this thread. I think that the following might be of relevance to the readings you obtained, and or the experiment as a whole, using the Juenke comparator.
When I was recently tooling up for my business and before I went for optical measurement, I gave the Juenke machine some serious consideration, if nothing else, for the reason that everyone on this side of the pond thought one could not possibly do without it!
Well, the machine would have suited me to the ground as a quality control tool for my jackets, that is both J4s and mine, as it was advertised good for sorting brass also! Or so I thought, anyway!
Had it been that the machine would, indeed, work it would have saved me a lot of hard slog on the mics!
There was never a pressing requirement for me to use it on my bullets, as I believe there are alternative, perhaps more, concrete and direct methods for maintaining quality control of same.
I proceeded with making a phone call to the purveyor of the machine. I initially got hold of a lady. I cannot remember whether she was a secretary or the purveyor's wife and who relayed the message from the purveyor himself. My understanding at the time was, I believe, the purveyor was hard of hearing and that it would have been easier if I enquired through her! I subsequently got talking to the purveyor himself who confirmed that, in his opinion, the machine would not be suitable for sorting out jackets, as the implement to hold the specimen down on the spinning part to take readings would be too powerful and that it could distord the jackets, therefore, the readings.
Needless to say I did not proceed with the purchase of the machine as I could see no further use for it - that is in my business - other than an instant comparator for jacket quality!
Based on your findings and from the point of view of a bullet maker, I personally feel that the machine could ultimately be most useful in checking the quality of BULLET MAKING DIES rather than bullets per se.
Having said that if, Heavens forbid, one ended up with a bum set of dies, what can one do other than respond to the situation in the proverbial manner....!!!

[bsl135]

Thank you for the enlightening discussion about the Juenke machine. I've heard of them, and this thread has answered all the questions I had.
In my opinion, the best method for measuring bullet balance is described in Chapter 9 of Harold Vaughn's book: "Rifle Accuracy Facts". In that chapter on Bullet Imbalance, Vaughn describes two tools for measuring the CG offset of bullets. The first is a cradle, suspended by thin wire on each side. If the CG of the cradled bullet is not precisely on the longitudinal axis, the cradle settles in a non-level position. This tool is the simplest to build and use, but it only measures static imbalance.
The second tool he describes holds the bullet in a sleeve while pressured air is blown in to support and spin the bullet. Microphones on opposing sides of the tube are connected to an oscilloscope, which detect oscillations in the microphone signals. By conditioning the signals from the microphones, one can resolve the components of static and dynamic imbalance.
If I were to construct a machine for the purpose of QC'ing bullets, it would be the second one Vaughn describes (the one with microphones). It has the advantage of measuring static and dynamic imbalance, also, it comes closest to measuring the complete bullet as it flies, not as it's spun by hand on a workbench. The greatest practical problem I see with this method is in the case of a bullet that is fired with some amount of in-bore yaw. Such a bullet will emerge from the muzzle with asymmetric engravings, and even if the bullet were perfect going into the gun, it may come out with imperfections. This, of course, is an alignment problem, not a problem with the bullet.
-Bryan Litz

[MARKS]

Jan,

I started with Shehane Dies with my on base and dial indicator. My freind got out of shooting, and I got his David Tubb's with a better base and indicator, Both worked great. Leonard Baity makes one also.

Mark

[Eric Stecker]

Adam,

For clarification, we did not want to use the Juenke to check jackets. The experiment I described was to determine if the Juenke did have the ability to see voids between the jacket and the core as was claimed. Frankly, we have not been promoters of the Juenke machine since the deviation units could not be explained or correlated to inches. We were compelled to purchase the unit due to the large number of people who would contact us with praise or complaints based on what the Juenke was telling them.

Today we use the Juenke to check bullets just so we know whether or not we will make those who use it happy. Further, there has been a large number of reports from people who are successful at 1,000 yards stating that they use the Juenke. In these cases I can't explain their results but also can't ignore them either. We know that consistency is the primary cause of accuracy so it is likely that the Juenke is providing an ability to identify consistency. You and I see eye to eye on many bullet making topics. I do not disagree with your post but rather wanted to clarify our reasons for using the Juenke.

Brian,

Would you expect that bullets made from the same set of dies could produce imbalances that would be sortable? On the surface I see how the processes you describe would be useful in identifying if a particular bullet design (beyond the print but rather the actual bullet) was balanced. Beyond the general layout of the bullet, if jackets were made in one in line set of dies and the bullets were run through the same set of seater and ogive dies would there be a difference in the balance of the bullet within a lot?

Regards,
Eirc Stecker